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Author Topic: The BAR Safari Model .338 Win Mag
Lieutenant Dan
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After doing a lot of research I think I have found the rifle I want to purchase. It is the Browning, semi-Atomatic, Safari model, in a .338 Winchester Magnum caliber. What do you guys think of this rifle?

All I want it for is a kick *** rifle, which has a lot of knock down power over a long distance, and can be shoulder fired; unlike the .500 Cal BMG rifle, which realisticly requires a tripod, unless you happen to be Animal Mother from the movie "Full Metal Jacket".

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wigeonmeister
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The .338 is a solid choice for what you stated, but the BAR is probably not the way to go.

I bought one a few years ago. I wound up selling it less than a year later because it would not cycle cleanly with the high-energy (H/E) loads I was putting thru it and intended to hunt with. Little did I realize that semi-autos are not kosher with H/E loads at all. Judging from what I had happen, I can only assume that they cause the actions to cycle too quickly, resulting in jams and failed ejections of spent brass.

If you go with reduced energy loads with a .338, you're defeating the purpose of a magnum caliber. If you continue to use H/E loads, the jamming defeats the purpose of using a semi-auto.

If you're sold on the BAR, go with a .30-06 or standard caliber. If you're sold on the .338, go with a bolt action.

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Lieutenant Dan
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quote:
The .338 is a solid choice for what you stated, but the BAR is probably not the way to go.

I bought one a few years. I wound up selling it less than a year later because it would not cycle cleanly with the high-energy loads I was putting thru it and intended to hunt with. Little did I realize that semi-autos are not kosher with H/E loads at all. Judging from what I had happen, I can only assume that they cause the actions to cycle too quickly, resulting in jams and failed ejections of spent brass.

If you go with reduced energy loads with a .338, you're defeating the purpose of a magnum caliber. If you continue to use H/E loads, the jamming defeats the purpose of using a semi-auto.

If you're sold on the BAR, go with a .30-06 or standard caliber. If you're sold on the .338, go with a bolt action.

That sucks! It is too bad a company would sell you a device, which is realisticlly incapable of performing the funtion they designed it for. If a Browning rifle cannot cycle an H/E .338 load, then no other rifle made can.

I definitly want a semi-auto, but if I go with a lesser caliber, this cuts my range down by quite a bit. I might as well go with the Henry .440 Mag "Big Boy" lever action rifle, if I have to go down to a smaller caliber. At least it is capable of repeating without jamming.

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bluegillbob
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quote:
Originally posted by Lieutenant Dan:


All I want it for is a kick *** rifle, which has a lot of knock down power over a long distance, and can be shoulder fired;

Get an original B.A.R. : the 1917 model. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Robert

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wigeonmeister
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Lt Dan,

Don't take that to mean that you cannot shoot a standard load thru the .338 BAR's. You can, but where you'll run into problems is with the H/E commercial offerings, and unfortunately that is what most of the premium bullets (Partitions, Bear Claws, etc.) are loaded as--H/E.

As long as I was shooting regular Core-Loks and such thru it, the rifle handled fairly well. Put a box of Federal H/E's or Hornadys into it, and often times it wouldn't even attempt to eject the round.

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D Boone
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Define Long range

You know "knock down power" is a myth right?

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Kimberman
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If a Browning rifle cannot cycle an H/E .338 load, then no other rifle made can.

Any bolt action can and will. If you are truly wanting to shoot at long range, no matter what the caliber, you should get a gun that is as accurate as possible. MOST semi autos will not shoot as well as a bolt action, and if you are truly shooting at long range, a quick follow up shot should be a non factor. What game animal are you shooting at long range?

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Sundown
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well if you want long range, .338 is probably not the way to go. balistically speaking, it is very close to a 30-06 in terms of performance with exceptions for cross sectional density and energy.

for high power long range shooting, i would be inclined to go with a .300 win mag. there is not much a .338 can do that a .300WM cant and at ranges beyond 300 yards, the .300WM is actually going to have more energy.

however, that said, if you want a really accurate long range semi auto with decent killing power i would pick up a springfield m1a match. alternatively the .308 ar-10s are supposed to be pretty accurate as well. DPMS makes some pretty good versions of those.

hope that helps. [Smile]

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Lieutenant Dan
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After some of you guys replies, I have changed my mind, and think I wil go with the Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in a .375 H&H caliber.

I like the .375 H&H Stainless Stalker better because it comes with a 24" barrell, unlike the .338 Win Mag version of the same rifle, which only comes in a 26" barrell length.

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turner1978
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You could still go with the 338 and just have the bbl cut to 24 if you like. Ruger makes the 338 with the 24 in bbl. As far as going with a good long range rifle you might be looking a litle too large of caliber, depending on the game you are hunting. If you are looking for long range deer and elk rifle then the 338 win mag is definately the way I would go instead of the 375 hh. But if you are wanting to hunt brown bear and can handle the recoil then the 375 is a good choice even thoughe the 338 is more than capable of killing anything that north america has to offer. If you are looking at a long range deer rifle then look no farther than the 270 WSM. I can attest to it's affectiveness on the deer and elk that I have shot with mine. Browning makes the 270 wsm with a 23 in bbl in a short action which will be pretty short and light if thats what you are after, but then again you could always split it in the midle and go with a 300 WSM and have a decent long range elk and deer rifle in a short and light package oh but then again... [Wink]
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G.MAN
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Browning doesnt even recommend shooting high energy loads through the BAR. I believe hornady's ammo even says do not shoot through simi autos. Reason is it is to hard on the gas system and cycles the gun to fast. I dont think your suppose to shoot H/E through any auto. I personally wouldnt shoot High energy through anything but a bolt or single shot.

This whole topic I guess I just dont understand.

quote:
Define Long range
You know "knock down power" is a myth right?

Please answer DBoones question.

People take deer and elk with 30-06 at several hundred yards and maybe more. I'm more of a shot placement person then how much energy at the muzzle and getting stomped when I pull the trigger.

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turkn8r1
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I am in agreement with most the folks as the action of most semi autos and magnum ammo don't seem to mix well. I must say though that stepping down in caliber will nessecarily cost you distance. I used an springfield M-14 for years in the service and have one now chambered in .308 and scoped properly and with the right practice 1,000 yards is doable. I guess how much distance are we talking. I have a 30-378 Wthby mag and believe me it cranks a 165 Barnes XLC out there like a varmit rifle but in actuality I can do the same thing with the .308 or .30-.06. Most people are not capable of shooting over 200 yards even though the shots seem farther 200 yards looks a long way off when looking at a white tail. Try out some of these lesser calibers and you may be surprised. The big bor for knock down is going to shoot like a rainbow and you are realistically not going to get the range you are looking for. There is some sort of myth out there about bullets and range but the real deal is that gravity affects all thigs and the slower and bigger an object is the more gravity affects it. the only way to try and cheat gravity is speed, and areo dynamics of the projectile. good shooting and good luck.
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D Boone
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I shoot my M1A and M1 Garand at 600 yards with open sights and do quite well thank you. Certainly well enough to kill a deer or elk with little problem. The problem isn't the action. Most any of my semi-auto rifles are capable of more than enough accuracy for the task. Its the shooter that's the weak link. I know less than 10% of the competitors that show up at your monthly highpower match could shoot well enough at 600 yards to make this claim.

But that's on a perfectly round black on white target on a known distance range with range flags for reading the wind strapped into a leather shooting jacket in the prone position (which is almost never possible in hunting conditions). Hunting an animal where none of those perfect conditions exist is a different matter entirely.

Again, I don't know what he means by long range as that means different things to different people. To me long range shooting is 600-1,000 yards. To some people 200 yards is long range.

FWIW, a .375 H&H is a tremendous cartridge, as is a .338 Winny. I have em both. They are wonderful deer guns if you like shooting with your eyes closed while you jerk the trigger. OK, I'm exaggerating a little. I will say that probably 7 out of 10 people that shoot either of those guns will hand it back to me after the second round. Very few will volunteer to shoot a full magazine.

A magnum that causes you to miss is worse than a 243 that you can shoot well...knock down power...whatever you think that is. Doesn't matter if your bullet goes into the dirt. Think about it.

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Hard H2O
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Is this your first rifle?

What are you intending to hunt with this rifle?

Are you a kid throwing smoke or are you an experienced hunter just looking for something different?

You do not need a magnum or such for whitetails. You do not need a magnum for any whitetail or such sized game at long range.

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Hard H2O
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quote:
Originally posted by D Boone:
I shoot my M1A and M1 Garand at 600 yards with open sights and do quite well thank you. Certainly well enough to kill a deer or elk with little problem. The problem isn't the action. Most any of my semi-auto rifles are capable of more than enough accuracy for the task. Its the shooter that's the weak link. I know less than 10% of the competitors that show up at your monthly highpower match could shoot well enough at 600 yards to make this claim.

But that's on a perfectly round black on white target on a known distance range with range flags for reading the wind strapped into a leather shooting jacket in the prone position (which is almost never possible in hunting conditions). Hunting an animal where none of those perfect conditions exist is a different matter entirely.

Again, I don't know what he means by long range as that means different things to different people. To me long range shooting is 600-1,000 yards. To some people 200 yards is long range.

FWIW, a .375 H&H is a tremendous cartridge, as is a .338 Winny. I have em both. They are wonderful deer guns if you like shooting with your eyes closed while you jerk the trigger. OK, I'm exaggerating a little. I will say that probably 7 out of 10 people that shoot either of those guns will hand it back to me after the second round. Very few will volunteer to shoot a full magazine.

A magnum that causes you to miss is worse than a 243 that you can shoot well...knock down power...whatever you think that is. Doesn't matter if your bullet goes into the dirt. Think about it.

I have been on the 1000meter KD range with my rack M16A1 years ago. Great fun and accurate as all heck. Qualifying out to 500meters on pop-ups prone and in a foxhole is fun also, again, with an off the rack M16A1.

I will agree that semi-autos are not inherently inaccurate. The right round and knowing you limitations are more important than the type of rifle.

What ranges are you realistically going to engage targets? Are you looking at match type accuracy requirements or a pie tin at 100 yards? Are you punching paper and trying to look cool with a big fancy shutzenboomer sitting in your gun cabinet for showing off or are you heading out to actually take game?

LT, you are leaving out a lot of information.

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Carolina Rebel
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quote:
Originally posted by turkn8r1:
There is some sort of myth out there about bullets and range but the real deal is that gravity affects all thigs and the slower and bigger an object is the more gravity affects it. the only way to try and cheat gravity is speed, and areo dynamics of the projectile. good shooting and good luck.

Actually the .338 Win Mag should shoot flatter than a goodly number of smaller caliber rounds. Why is this?
It pushes that big bullet FAST. Gravity doesn't differentiate between small objects and large ones, an experiment on the Leaning Tower of Pisa determined this awhile ago. In fact given equivalent bullet shape the heavier bullet, at the same velocity as a lighter one, will shoot flatter. This results from the bigger bullet's greater inertia--its resistance to a force from another object--which is a product of an object's mass and kinetic energy. Gravity is a force, and thus if you have two bullets travelling horizontally at x velocity, the heavier bullet is going to have more inertia, have greater resistance to gravity, and thus shoot flatter.

Haha sorry, I'm a big fan of the mid-bores and their excellent trajectories are one of their strong points, so I had to clarify that.

As far as the actual topic of the thread, the B.A.R in .338 would presumably function well with non-high energy loads, and should this be the case it would be an excellent weapon.

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tddeangelo
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That is mostly correct....acceleration due to gravitational force is the same regardless of mass. It is, in fact, generally considered a constant of 9.81 meters per second per second.

You can drop a pea or a .50BMG round. They will accelerate downward at the same rate.

Now...since we're getting technical....

NOTHING "resists gravity better". Everything is affected the same. So how can some rounds shoot a flatter trajectory than others? Because they move faster. The faster the projectile moves, the less TIME gravity has to act on it for a given length of flight. Shoot two bullets at the same speed and they will follow the same trajectory UNTIL THEY HAVE DIFFERENT VELOCITIES.

NOW-- why is it that small calibers tend to have flat trajectories up front and vastly increasing trajectories at distance? Because they are low in mass and will shed VELOCITY faster. If you shoot a 200gr. bullet from a .338 at 2700fps in a vacuum next to a 150gr. bullet from a .30-06 doing the same 2700fps, they will have identical trajectories. We don't live in a vacuum,though. Because of this, there is drag. And because of drag, projectiles loose velocity.

So where we see flatter trajectories will be with rounds that are better able to resist drag caused by the atmosphere (air). You can do this with very high velocities, light projectiles, and highly aerodynamic shaping to the projectiles.

You can do it with heavy projectiles fired at moderate velocities.

The problem is that projectiles that are greater mass resist changes in velocity....going and coming. So while that heavy bullet resists being SLOWED, it also resists being ACCELERATED. The result of that resistance is recoil. So while shooting a 200gr. bullet at 4500fps would be great on paper, your rifle and your shoulder would be unhappy (to put it mildly).

.50BMG rounds, iirc, fly out the muzzle around 2700fps. Sounds slow...but those big 700+gr bullets, streamlined and boattailed, can hang on to that velocity for a LOOOONG time, thus smoothing the trajectory and creating a fine long-range round.

A .22-cal round will NEVER equal it because it simply lacks the mass to do so.

Now--- getting back to the .338-chambered BAR. I can't help but wonder....

WHY?

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turkn8r1
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I stand corrected. It is correct that the heavier object at the same speed will have a better trajectory. I confirmed this in the reloading manual. I compared a 185 gr boat tail fired from a .330 win mag to a 180 gr boat tail fired from a 30-378 wby mag. Given that both bullets were travelling at 3100 fps the .338 has a 4" flatter trajectory than the .30 cal at 600 yards. At 500 yards it is a whopping 2" flatter. I guess the question is how big is big enough. Oh I also compared how each can be loaded and because the 30-378 can be loaded a full 400 fps faster with the 180 gr it is capable of a flatter trajectory and more enrgy on impact. The .338 is a great round and covers pretty much all the bases but it is limited to availability of different bullets to load where the .30 cal is not. in the end all the size and speed really becomes mute as a good rifle setup with good optics a good rest and someones skills and experience determine the outcome time after time. My Grandad once told me that the sun shines on every dogs butt some day but consistency is better than luck in my book any day.
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D Boone
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You all are wacked. A 400 grain round ball at 1800 fps will NOT have a better trajectory than a 150 grain .30 cal spitzer shaped projectile at the same velocity.

Trajectory is a function of velocity AND bullet shape. Gravity is a constant--well in a vacuum it is. But for the purposes of ballistics where we are comparing objects of relatively similar density its close enough that it would take some ultra sophisticated scientific equipment to measure the difference and it would still be irrelevant to our discussion.

Bullet shape is mathematically expressed as something we call ballistic coefficient. This is a quantitative way of saying a given bullets has a particular ability to slice through the air. This also is not a constant but a mathematical function and is dependant on velocity. Air behaves differently at different velocities--the faster a bullet goes the more it compresses the air in front of itself... Generally, the higher a bullet's ballistic coefficient the less resistance it offers to air and wind.

In my above example if both bullets were fired at the exact same instant from a pair of guns with barrels perfectly aligned from a trajectory standpoint they will both hit the ground at precisely the same instant. But the .308 caliber round will have traveled much farther from the muzzle than the round ball. But they hit the ground at the same time.

And the .338 Win Mag is not a particularly good long range round. The best .338 bullet from a BC perspective is the 300 gr HPBT but most .338s can't launch it fast enough--now a .338 Lapua can but that's another ball of wax. But I could take a 7mm Rem Mag with a 168 gr HPBT and it would ballistically outperform the .338 at 1,000 yards in every category except maybe ft/lbs of energy.

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Jayman
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My question is: If the .338WM does not ejected properly in a BAR with factory premiums, how come Browning hasn't done anything about it yet?... [Confused]
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tddeangelo
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Geez, DB....you miss your anti-cranky pills this week? [Wink] (kidding!)

I made the point about drag. That addresses your example of a round ball vs. a spitzer bullet. You are correct that a round ball won't have the same trajectory in atmospheric conditions. Why? Because DRAG causes the round ball to dump velocity like it's going out of style while the spitzer grudgingly gives it up over time. Because of that, VELOCITY changes more dramatically in the round ball, allowing it to cover less real estate in a given period of time, hence a more pronounced trajectory.

We're saying the same thing. But I'm wacked....

;D

[Big Grin]

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wigeonmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Jayman:
My question is: If the .338WM does not ejected properly in a BAR with factory premiums, how come Browning hasn't done anything about it yet?... [Confused]

Jay, my only guess is that it's something which is inherent to most all semi autos, whether they be from Browning, Remington, or whomever else. In one way or another, they all utilize gas pressure from the load being fired to operate the ejection sequencing, and with most factory loaded premium ammo, the pressures are notably higher, which causes that sequence to operate too fast, resulting in jammed empty cases.
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Lieutenant Dan
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My decision has come down to two rifles.


 -
1. Remington Model 700 XCR/ .375 H&H Caliber

 -
2. Browning Stainless Stalker A-Bolt/ .375 H&H Caliber

The Browning rifle comes with a BOSS scope for the retail price of $1025. The Remington rifle only comes with steel sights, and retails for $1056. I am leaning toward the Remington because it is a quality rifle. What do you guys think?

It would be cool if I could afford one of Remington's custom-made Model 700 BGR rifles, but the MSRP on those is a little over $2000 (out of my price range). There is a gun shop I do all my business with, which sells all their guns at 10% over cost + state tax and Brady.

This would be my first Centerfire rifle, and a good Centerfire rifle would round out my collection. Some people have a problem with me wanting a large caliber Centerfire rifle, but I want-what I want-and I am going to get it!

My other guns include

Ruger .357 Mag SP-101/Spurless trigger (for CCW purposes)

S&W Model 629 .44 Mag

Maverick Model-88/ 12 Gauge shot gun

Most important of all/ 550-pound Liberty Gun safe

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Kimberman
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I would get the Browning, but thats mainly because I dont like Remington products. You never did answer the question of what you intending to hunt with this rifle. And if you have never owned a centerfire rifle b4, I think you are off you rocker to go with a .375.
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RemMan
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I would suggest .270,.308,.30-06 for your first centerfire rifle. .375 H&H will be expensive and hard to find. I would go with the Remington. Not a big fan of Japanse guns.
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