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Author
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Topic: Conventional vs. Baitcaster Reels
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
Other than the size, what are the differences between these reels?
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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SenkoMan85
Active Member
Member # 10023
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posted
Conventional reels typically don't have breaking systems making them very difficult, if not impossible, to cast effectively. They are mainly for trolling or just dropping over the side of a boat/pier/bridge.
Posts: 2000 | From: Maryland
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Captain Chaos
Active Member
Member # 8614
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posted
Oh contrar monfrar.....er somethin'.
What senkoman85 said is mostly true except there are some exceptions. One reel in particular is the Daiwa SL30SH. Awesome saltwater reel. You can cast it a freakin mile + 1/2. Also use it for pier fishin, bottom fishin and you can troll with it. It handles most saltwater applications until you get to the really really big fish.
Generally speaking, I consider baitcasters for accurate casting, freshwater + smaller fish and conventional for saltwater/sometimes freshwater + big fish.
Posts: 205 | From: Concord, NC
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tiny
Active Member
Member # 3675
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posted
conventional reels and baitcaster reels are synonymous ... synonymous means that it means the same thing ... when you're talking about conventional reels you are talking about baitcasters so there is no difference in the two ... all baitcasters are conventional reels so that's like saying what's the difference between a lawyer and an attorney
Posts: 741 | From: Lake Keystone, Oklahoma
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Ballistik
Active Member
Member # 11138
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by tiny:
conventional reels and baitcaster reels are synonymous ... synonymous means that it means the same thing ... when you're talking about conventional reels you are talking about baitcasters so there is no difference in the two ... all baitcasters are conventional reels so that's like saying what's the difference between a lawyer and an attorney
Tiny your better let Shimano and other reel manufacturers this because on there site the list CONVENTIONAL REELS, Low PROFILE BAITCASTERS, and ROUND BAITCASTERS as different reels. Also why is it the some conventional reels have no level wind. So as far as a Lawyer and attorney should be more like Mall Security and Sheriff Deputy.
Posts: 229 | From: Highland Mi.
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
My neighbor has a Shimano Triton conventional reel. I didn't tighten the spool tension knob...I kept it loose. I tied on a 2 oz sinker for practice, and started casting it at short distances. After getting comfortable with it, I was casting it around 100 ft. Not once did I get a backlash. This was my first time casting such a reel. It had about 200 yds of 20 lb test.
My neighbor said it'll cast. Like I said, I've never cast a levelwind, and it was easy. With a longer rod and more practice, I could probably cast it further. I honestly believe I can cast a conventional further than a spinning reel. I'll probably use conventionals for catfishing.
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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Captain Chaos
Active Member
Member # 8614
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posted
Dang, what size cats are you goin for?? Go with a "lesser" reel, I mean suited for smaller weights. It will be much "funner" catching the fish. A round freshwater baitcaster would be lesser....you can do low profile if you like too.
I'd suggest a round Abu Garcia....
Now, if you are targeting 100 pound catfish... that triton probably would work better.
Posts: 205 | From: Concord, NC
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twiggymac
Active Member
Member # 14627
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posted
isnt conventional those crappy things with a push button, cus they arnt the same as baitcasters. batcasters are way more complex, proally sturdier, and can handel larger fish.
i could be rong cus im not really sure what your talkin bout
Posts: 415 | From: braintree ma
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tiny
Active Member
Member # 3675
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posted
Ballistik, It's not refering to a different type of baitcaster when they call them conventional ... when they're talking about reels they'll say any of them are conventional and when someone says conventional reel then you know they're talking about a baitcaster of some type or other... there are only three main classes of reels and that's baitcaster, spinning and spincast ... the alvey also fits into the spinning type reel but it's not really a standard spinning reel as when you cast it you flip the spool sideways and then rotate it back to like a baitcaster when you're reeling it in ... it's a weird rascal ... kinda like a spinning reel and baitcaster wrapped up into one reel ... they didn't go over too well as they'd create a lot of line twist and wasn't really all that good for anything. but, when you talk about conventional reels you're talking about baitcasters of some sort ... the reason some have levelwinds and some don't is due to preference mostly ... to give people a choice of features and casting performance ... I used to be involved in casting competitions and in casting competitions most people use abu ultramag III baitcaster (conventional) reels which were discontinued in the 1980's as they didn't hold up too well to bass fishing and didn't sell all that well and there wasn't enough competition casters around to keep them in demand as they evolved into different types of reels like the low profile of today but getting back to why they don't have a levelwind on those ... they originally come with levelwinds but when a competition caster acquires on they will "tune" the reel up or soupe it up so that it will cast a lot further than it normally would in stock condition and usually the first thing that happens is the levelwind is removed and they replace the levelwind with a conversion bar to make the frame of the reel more sturdy ... with the levelwind removed there is also less moving parts to malfunction so the reels actually last longer and are more easily maintained as the levelwinds are usually the first thing to mess up on a levelwind reel after a long period of use. they also have to be cared for a lot more so than the non-levelwind reels like in offshore trolling ... guides like them without levelwinds out on the ocean when battling sea monsters the last thing you want to happen when fighting a large fish is a levelwind to hang up or malfunction and start spooling the line up in one spot ... this could be a disaster if you've got a 5 or 6 hundred pound blue marlin on the line so without a levelwind to malfunction the reels are pretty trouble free. now a lot of folks like me like levelwinds because you don't have to use your thumb or explain to clients how to spool the reels that don't have levelwinds on them as they usually don't remember when the rod buries in the water and they get a good adreno rush ... remembering the spooling technique usually gets thrown out the window and they just pile the line up in the center or on one side of the reel making it to where it's going to backlash like crazy when you cast it the next time. so that's why I like using levelwind reels ... surf fishermen that use abu 6500 ctc3 reels or similar reels like the penn 525 mag because that sand on those beaches is all the time blowing around and getting on the reels and the levelwinds would be toast in just a short while in situations like that like down on some of the beaches in texas where the sand is really fine and like little bitty glass granuals so levelwinds don't work well in those situations either. Normal fresh water boat fishing however they'll work great on but will still malfunction at times but still worth it to me to not have to stare at the spool when I'm fighting a fish. also the larger fish put more strain on the levelwinds on short boat rods where the first guide is closer to the reel making it put a bind on the levelwind kinda sideways when you pull hard on the fish ... I normally have my drags set pretty light so that it just takes longer to reel the fish in instead of putting a lot of pressure on the levelwinds and line ... if one of my clients hook a biggun they have to use the rod to pull on the fish instead of just cranking the reel like a winch ... I explain to them that they must use the rod to pump them and then view the reel as a device to just take up the slack. that way if there's a bad spot on the line it'll have less of a chance of breaking the line also. I think I've covered most of the reasons why some reels don't have levelwinds and there probably are other reasons as well ... like down in south america ... the guides down there say if you bring your own reels be sure to bring one with a lot of line capacity and no levelwind because those big catfish down there will destroy a levelwind when it gets out of time with the line on the reel ... like when the levelwind is on the right side of the reel heading back in the other direction and the line being pulled off the reel is all the way on the other side of the reel, that will pretty much tear the levelwind up if you've got 20 lb drag set or more because that 20 lbs is probably equaling 40 or more pounds against that little piece of metal pulling sideways on it and it'll just bend the levelwind over ... then when you try to reel it with the levelwind bent sideways it'll get stuck when it gets over and hits on the left side of the reel frame and then you have no way to land the fish as the reel is locked up completely. only thing to do then is have someone with some sort of wire cutters to try to cut the levelwind wire off of it ... that might be pretty tough to get done with a big 200 or 300 lb south american catfish ripping line off the reel.
Posts: 741 | From: Lake Keystone, Oklahoma
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Chaos:
Dang, what size cats are you goin for?? Go with a "lesser" reel, I mean suited for smaller weights. It will be much "funner" catching the fish. A round freshwater baitcaster would be lesser....you can do low profile if you like too.
I'd suggest a round Abu Garcia....
Now, if you are targeting 100 pound catfish... that triton probably would work better.
Captain,
I'd rather have heavier gear...you never know if a big fish will take your bait and run. I'd rather hook 5 lb catfish on a heavy outfit over a 25 lb cat on lighter gear.
I've caught catfish on outfits from an ultralight spin gear to a flyrod. I feel more comfortable using heavier gear over lighter gear for catfish. I'm currently using spin gear rated at 14 lbs, and I don't feel comfortable using it. I like a good fisght from a fish, but it's no fun when your gear isn't strong enough to pull a fish from a stump or from some rocks.
I'd like to hook into catfish that'll swallow an entire 3" or 4" live bluegill with no problem...with 2 or 3 oz. of lead below it.
Saltwater gear for catfish? Why not...you never know when that big cat will strike! I'd rather have too heavy gear and not need it instead of having too light gear and hooking a big fish.
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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Captain Chaos
Active Member
Member # 8614
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posted
Hey man. I hear ya. Me, I'm the total opposite. I'd rather fight fish on lighter gear, even bigger ones. The fight is a lot more fun to me when you can't muscle the fish in. In theory, you could catch a 100lb fish on 10 pound line....just have to work him like Bill Dance on zan-ex + a couple 40s. If I lose him...he deserved to "win" and I didn't.
Different reels for different folks....er somethin.
If big is what you're after....those Diawa reels are great reels....they discontinued the sealine slosh but I believe the sealine x took their place. Can cast a freakin' mile with that reel...especially with a longer pole and some weight.
Posts: 205 | From: Concord, NC
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
Captain,
I too like the fight of a fish. But when the fish is able to bury itself in a world of snags on the bottom, I want an outfit that'll bring the fish out of it! If catfish didn't swim towards snags, I'd gladly use those old salmon rigs.
My biggest bass was 22" (a tad over 5 lbs), and it was taken on my 4wt flyrod using a 4 lb leader...I was casting for bluegills using a popper called "bluegill special" by Accardo. When that bass unexpectantly hit, it swam on the surface and made a wake. Since I was using a light outfit with a light leader, I used an old trick : let the fish run with a slack line, and I could keep it out of the weeds. This worked : the bass made a run for the other side of the pond, and made one leap. After that, I started bringing the fish towards me. When the fish got closer, he made a dash for the weeds...and stayed there. Since I was wading, I put the rod on the shore and waded to the fish. I felt the line and worked my hand down to the fish. I felt the mouth and pulled the fish from the salad. If I had my other flyrod (the 8wt with the 20 lb leader), I would've simply fought the fish more aggresively and pulled him out from the weeds! In snaggy areas, I want gear that'll pull fish out of without worrying about the gear.
I used to pull 20 lb salmon out of the river with 12 lb test...I wasn't worried because there were no snags for the fish to swim to. Catfish country...stumps, rocks, and other obstacles to get tangled up in.
Some people don't mess around. A local angler pulled a 101 lb catfish from the river...he used a whole chicken for bait! No trotline either ; it was caught on a rod and reel!
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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muddawg
Active Member
Member # 7234
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posted
Robert,
Why don't you come and talk to me? You know I have the very equipment that you are asking about, you know I've been fishing with large bait fish for a good while now and you know what kind of fish I've been catching. I can answer all these questions you have and you don't even call? ....That's kind of insulting, Dude.
Remember when we hunted those fish on the North East? Well, guess what... I FOUND THEM! What's more is I know the perfect reel for you and where to find it! I'm gonna go back and get myself a couple of them but the supply is limited because they don't make them anymore. If you want one then CALL ME!
It just blows my mind how you've done such a 180 on your thoughts and opinions on all the stuff we used to argue over. Now, you are saying all the things I use to tell you! ... And you won't call?
I'll be at home or at Ma's the rest of the day. Come on by and we'll talk about fishing reels till we're blue in the face. This is just another one of those invitations you say you don't get.
Muddawg
Posts: 3673 | From: Dudley,NC
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Grimlin
Active Member
Member # 12813
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by muddawg:
Robert,
Why don't you come and talk to me? You know I have the very equipment that you are asking about, you know I've been fishing with large bait fish for a good while now and you know what kind of fish I've been catching. I can answer all these questions you have and you don't even call? ....That's kind of insulting, Dude.
Remember when we hunted those fish on the North East? Well, guess what... I FOUND THEM! What's more is I know the perfect reel for you and where to find it! I'm gonna go back and get myself a couple of them but the supply is limited because they don't make them anymore. If you want one then CALL ME!
It just blows my mind how you've done such a 180 on your thoughts and opinions on all the stuff we used to argue over. Now, you are saying all the things I use to tell you! ... And you won't call?
I'll be at home or at Ma's the rest of the day. Come on by and we'll talk about fishing reels till we're blue in the face. This is just another one of those invitations you say you don't get.
Muddawg
Boy if muddawg was near me i'd take that offer up in a heartbeat.
Posts: 2348 | From: Canton,MI.
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
Muddawg,
You don't fish with conventional reels...you prefer spinning. You can't answer my questions about conventional gear because you don't use them. I'm not insulting you...if you used conventional gear, I would've asked you about it. You use spinning gear for catfish and not conventional gear.
I want to use conventional gear for catfish. I've conquered flyfishing, spincast, and spinning...I want to expand my fishing horizons. Besides, the conventional reel has less parts ans casts further...you don't have to worry about the bail when fighting a bigger catfish.
I'm not going to get serious about chasing cats until I get the conventional reels.
I didn't flip flop about gear. Remember when I asked you about my spinning gear? You said "it'll work, but you need heavier stuff." I'm looking to upgrade...I'm getting stronger stuff, namely conventional gear.
Why is it that I have to call? You drove past the house this summer, and didn't knock on the door? The truck and car were in the driveway...I was home. Admit it...we're both stubborn.
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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muddawg
Active Member
Member # 7234
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posted
It wasn't that long ago on this very forum you were asking SPECIFICALY about spinning reels for cats. Yes. I have used baitcasters before and yes, I even mastered the cast. I just prefer spinning gear and could list for you the reasons why. Actually, I have on numerous occasions on this forum, explained why I prefer them to baitcasters.
As far as passing your house, well... I am a plumber by trade and as such still make house calls. I remember the day in question and had the next call to go to. In other words, I was working. Besides, you gave me no indication that I was welcome at you humble abode.
Yeah, I did tell you that the gear you had was a bit light weight for cats but at the same time you saw what I was using. I've never had a problem with the bell in hard fights and it never crossed my mind to worry about it. It's just a simple matter of matching the gear for the fish you're after and you won't have any problems.
Anyway,... I'm done with fishing now till after the first of the year. I'll be in the woods till then. I'm off to a good start. I've only had two full days of hunting and a couple of part days but I see deer every trip. I killed two last Saturday.
I'm off to the woods for tomorrow after noon. Maybe I've got enough truck to haul them all home. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Muddawg
Posts: 3673 | From: Dudley,NC
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SMDave
Active Member
Member # 10657
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by muddawg:
As far as passing your house, well... I am a plumber by trade and as such still make house calls. I remember the day in question and had the next call to go to. In other words, I was working. Besides, you gave me no indication that I was welcome at you humble abode.
Uhoh not another Efficiency? I think not ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 1575 | From: New Jersey
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hotsprings
Junior Member
Member # 14295
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posted
Good luck with your hunt Dawg. Does hunting come easy to you? You said you've seen alot of deer recently. It must not be much of a challenge. And you strike me as someone that loves a good challenge.
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Carolina Rebel
Active Member
Member # 2472
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posted
Around here the general rule is baitcaster=levelwind, conventional=no levelwind. Things like the Penn 345GTi kind of goof up that idea though. I digress.....
Interesting turn of events here, bgb, I figured you were sold on spinning reels. Seems like your prime question is what kind of reel should I get? Basically you're looking at two options, brakes and levelwinds. Given that you're going to be catfishing, you need reasonable castability and you'll be doing alot of nightfishing. Honestly, given you're just starting to fish with these reels you'll want all the help you can get, so I'd look at something like an Ambassadeur 6500, which has both a brake and a levelwind. You're not going to be casting 600', and you're not going to be looking at any drag-smoking levelwind-burning 100+ yard runs, so an Ambassadeur should suit you well and cast nicely. If you're really confident in your casting capability, and want something a little tougher for a little cheaper,
get a Penn 9M with an aluminum spool. Put a couple of rare earth magnets (from Radio Shack) in small washers on the inside of the clicker-side sideplate. This is a levelwind reel, but its tufff. With the aluminum spool and mags it'd cast great, and not many catfish are going to tear it up. Good bit sturdier than the Abus, though Abus can surely take a beating too. Unlike the Abus, you can pick up the Penn 9s for nothing on ebay. They even come with spare levelwind pawls in the sideplate, so if your levelwind goes out while fishing, all you need is a flathead screwdriver and in a minute or so you're back in working order. If you're really looking for a bargain, Penn 85s go for little more than the cost of shipping all the time on ebay. They're tough reels, no levelwind but with skinny spools so its easy to keep it level. I've got several, and they cast great for their size, and they're plenty beefy. Hold something like 300yds of 30lb test, and I can toss em 30-40 yards with an ounce of weight on a 7' MH Ugly Stik. I've got a good bit of experience with conventionals doing everything from surf fishing to bottom fishing to bass fishing, they're definitely my reel of choice. Honestly non-levelwinds aren't too much trouble, they just take getting used to. I've gotten to where I can fish my surf setups (Penn 525 Mags--no levelwind) at night and keep the line good and level, gotta check now and then to be safe. As Tiny mentioned, when you're casting really far an unbalanced spool can make for some major backlash problems. For catfishing, casting 30-40 yards max, it shouldn't be too big a deal.
Posts: 3475 | From: Waxhaw, NC
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cliffjumper
Active Member
Member # 15107
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posted
No argument with you Tiny. I've got an Alvey, Diawa Sealine SH-X in 2 sizes, a few Abus, Shimanos, a Pflueger, an Avet ("unique cast-control") some Okumas, Penn Baja, Penn 525.
For mega, heavy-weight casting I prefer no level wind... Conventional, but I like a cast-control device on my reels, rather than just the spool's friction-control adjustment. Non-levelwind allows the lure to carry the line through the not-so-rare over-run, and... no backlash. The Pflueger (non-levelwind) isn't bad, is user-friendly, but it's a cheap reel.
The Diawas, Penn 525 & Avet cast a mile. The Avet's system may take a bit of constant tinkering if you're casting all the time due to the cast-control doubling as the light drag-control. Beautifully-made reel. It's a wow!
The external mag control on the Penn 525 is very strong, excellent for heavy casting, pretty good for lighter casting. The spool-friction knob is good & large, if a bit slick. Incredible drag, super strong, heavy gears (weight).
The Diawas are great, esp. the size 20. User-friendly. Watch that when you do "pop the hood" that you don't lose the centrifugal weight blocks. Popping the hood requires a screwdriver so you'll only do that at home, I hope.
Reeling-in without a levelwind requires attention or you pile the line all onto one side. Not paying attention to that could cause an ugly problem. The price for great long heavy-casting.
Alvey: I first spooled the Alvey with Big Game mono... Huge mistake. Now it's braid & works like a charm. Line-twist is less than a spinning reel as the line spools on directly, like the conventional multipliers. The one catch is you must wrap the separate, enclosed line-guide onto your rod to keep your line from deflecting off the spool when reeling-in. Great drags, long casts, precise playing of fish... I like it. Some Alvey models are mooching reels, not casting reels. Alvey casters have won long-cast contests.
Spool-timing is only a problem with non-disengaging level winds. Those guys having problems with their line/spool-timing should either peel their line all out & start again, or loosen the spool away from the gears & pull-out enough line until the direction & position of the line-flow matches the position & direction of the level-wind. Then start fishing.
That's a problem with the larger size 30+ round BC reels like Okuma Nitryx(Cabela), Pfleuger Trion (Cabela SS), Browning (BPS), Shimano Catalan etc, where you must pull the spool to adjust the centrifugal weights. Diawa Millionaire, Abu & Quantum Cabo PT adjust on the handle-side, or have a removable side-plate to adjust the weights w/o pulling the spool.
That non-disegaging level wind is prevalent among "conventional" larger reels but not with low profile BC reels.
I've cast my Baja (non-levelwind), Ticas & Okuma Convectors & Catalinas (all levelwinds), which don't have centrifugal or magnetic cast-controls.
The Baja is managable but the friction-control knob is stiff, thin & slick. The levelwind Okumas (size 45), when casting 2-5 oz I'm getting yahoo-backlashes every 3-5 casts, so they're a pain to cast. The Ticas have auto-clutches and the handle movement triggers the clutch on most casts, snapping-off your lures/baits.
The true conventional is the mooching-style Diawa or Shimano single-action reels or the several single-pin fly-reel-style (Hardy, Okuma, Islander) single action salmon/steelhead float reels. Direct-drive, 1:1 ratios, one-way or no-way drags (palm the spool). I've watched guys casting the single-pins very well. I can't.
Those reels are a lot of fun when you hook-up a wild 40# salmon in the deep blue. A true pain if you're jigging 100'+ deep.
For you bass fishers out there, if you jig cold weather bass, try spooling a small 4wt-rated fly reel with 4# flourcarbon, on a 9' crappie rod, and hang on. That IS bass fishing at its finest.
Cheers!, and I salute all those who read this through.
Posts: 2052 | From: Vancouver Island BC
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
Question : why aren't all the conventional reels levelwind? It would seem that a levelwind reel will put the line on the spool in a uniform fashion.
I flyfish, and flyreels are not levelwind...it's a pain fighting a fish while using your pinkie to evenly wind the flyline, keeping your flyreel from binding from the line piling up on one part of the reel, keeping it from turning. I only fight big fish "on the reel", and it can be a handful while worrying about losing a nice fish!
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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Captain Chaos
Active Member
Member # 8614
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bluegillbob:
Question : why aren't all the conventional reels levelwind? It would seem that a levelwind reel will put the line on the spool in a uniform fashion.
Less resistance for greater casting distance and a levelwind is very bad for hard charging species like a king makerel....aka reel burner.
You get used to thumbing the line on the reel after a while....no biggee.
Posts: 205 | From: Concord, NC
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cliffjumper
Active Member
Member # 15107
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posted
Hi BGB. Like Tiny said, if you're surfin around sandy water, or casting on a windy, sandy beach, you'll quickly grind-out your level wind.
I've never had a fish big enough or mean enough to damage a levelwind, our max is 200# halibut & 60# chinook salmon. The salmon runs pretty well, the halibut is just a tugging slab of meat. I can imagine big tuna etc straining the thing out of whack.
My big reason for not wanting level wind on these is for casting. These reels hold 300+/-yds of 30#/40# mono/80#/100# braids. They're big reels with stiff lines and the levelwind contributes a lot to major backlashing.
The no-levelwind allows the line to spin-out quite a bit (overspool), but still keep going and eliminating the built-up over-spooled line without line-crossing or over-thumbing the spool. That's why I like centrifugal or magnetic cast controls on these reels. They do a lot of the control work.
You get much longer casts. The only trade-off is reeling back in. You do have to pay some attention to your line-positioning or you get high-stacking on one side, and like your fly reel, it can bind & jam on the reel frame if it gets too high.
However, unlike some say, I don't get backlashing from that on the next cast if the line's reeled up nice & tight. I will thumb on the low-line area of the spool tho, just to keep the stacked-line from slipping over.
Is it all worth it? I've never tried the Abu C3 size 7000 level wind. Maybe that's a better option? I just automatically hold the line now when I use these reels, and adjust line one side to the other now & then.
I sure do like those long (for me) casts from non-levelwinds when I'm throwing big weights on big lines. And, pulling a big fish from a long way, there's less to screw-up, although I've pulled up big fish with my Tica & Okuma levelwinds no problems, 100# braid. I just pump up & reel down, letting the drag fight the fish, not the levelwind arms.
There's always a trade-off somewhere for something. What's the priority?
Cheers!
Posts: 2052 | From: Vancouver Island BC
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bluegillbob
Active Member
Member # 5475
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posted
My friend bought me the Shakespeare "Tidewater" conventional reel and a Berkeley "Big Game" casting rod (7'6") last night. An old friend of mine that catches big cats said that combo will work nicely on the bigger cats. I'll try it out in the springtime!
Cheers,
Robert
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Robert
Posts: 6750 | From: Dudley, NC
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